Why instinctive shooting is hard up close ?

[whump]

Whump sez; I have been thinking back when I hunted strictly instinctive , shooting recurves and then compounds using some visualization tech on the arc of the arrow . I could drop an arrow in on a deer at 30yds without a problem but put one under my tree and I would shoot a foot over it. When I started using a point on aiming system----kinda like the one Jim Casto is talking about . I would take 4 shots or 5 and kill 4 0r 5 deer using point on . So in retrospect I am thinking since there is no arrow arc to visualize 10ft from a stand, then your aiming system is in short circuit if you shoot instinctive, especially from a tree stand. Both systems have their problems, for instance --since I anchor under my eye and shoot a heavy arrow I am at a disadvantage on a long shot , out to 35yds. I am aiming at the top of the deers back or just about at the spine to drop in the lung area so if I am off on my distance estimation I can shoot over or under the deer.

So what do you guys think causes that over shooting on a close target shooting instinctive ? Lack of practice shooting close , arrow arc short circuit or just plane excitement .??
Most of the people you talk to shoot over deer at close range and you rarely talk to anyone that sez----I shot under a deer right under my tree stand .

[topcamp]

99.99999999 % of the time from a tree stand ......especially a high stand..............it's lack of proper body alignment and dropping the bow arm for sight picture instead of bending the upper body at the waist to keep proper shoulder/bow arm alignment. doing that moves ones head and eye alignment way off and up ..........even though every thing may look as a slam dunk in the hit department..........plus......that up close and personal........i promise you that even if you don't see it............your target has reacted to your string drop and it's center mass thorax target area has changed location bigtime long before the arrow gets there.......[ straight down may not be as bad, but i hate that shot anyway ]

it doesn't take much of a bow arm drop to really mess with where it goes versus where it should have gone. since i for all intents and purposes use my arrow tip as a sight before i draw the bow.................even bending at the waist to keep the arm/shoulder alignment .........anything under 18 feet.......i pretty much have to put that arrow tip right at the bottom of the ridge cage or an inch or two lower if i want to be in the heart area with the hit. at 30 yrds .....with my shooting style, three under, middle finger corner of the mouth trigger, heavy arrow.......my arrow tip is sitting right on or an inch above the backbone. works great........as long as your range estimation is on.

of course we then can get back into whats called instinctive shooting.............the whole debate...........me being from the school there is no such thing as even making the so called instinctive shot........the reality is that your body and mind are using subconscious aiming points and posistions that have been learned shot after shot that one does all the while with out being conscious of doing........hence the so called " instinctive shot "......but that little theory is a can of worms at the mountain top with so called " instinctive shooters ".

i have yet to shoot with .........or watch.........a tradition archer shoot even half way well enough to be in the woods........that did not use some method of aiming.......concious or unconcious............so now that one realizes that is what's going on..........then one can use or be aware of .........the visualization of arrow arc for his
peticular arrow tune..........when that happens........then one has to also be absolute in his body mechanics and form regardless of his shot posistion if he wants any percentage of certainty in his shot. so we come back to keeping the upper body and bow arm in alingment which means some real uncomfortable waist bends depending on the angle if your up high......i promise you...........you drop that bow arm an inch and with the deer reaction to your string drop..........and the range under 18 yrds ........and you picking center mass thorax area for the target............you'll be picking your arrow out of the leaves with out any blood on it.

of course all of the above.......just being one ol mans years of doing it...................

[Stykshooter]

I do not use any type of aiming system, and truly do not even see my arrow in my periphial vision when I shoot. No yardage estimation or hold over/under. I know Joe and Will both shoot the same way. I shoot a bow almost every day of the year though and launch about a milyun arrows annually.

I used to do as Whump says and shoot high over the back of a deer at close range, and still do on occasion. I think it was a combination of incorrect shooting form as Topcamp said above, with a healthy dash of lack of concentration at the close in shots. My mind was rushing the shot and telling me that it was impossible to miss at that close range.

I set my stands up in thick cover to give me those close shots. The last 30 or so deer I have shot have almost all been inside of 15 yards, most inside of ten. That being said, I have tree stands and 3-D's set up in my yard and I practice daily from them the month or so prior to the season coming in. I always have a deer set up at 3-5 yards beneath the stand for me to practice that shot.

[4nolz]

I shoot the same way-instinctive I dont care what the gurus say-I pick a spot I want to hit.

I always try to look at the armpit/lower line of the body on a hog-try to "miss low"

I shot this hog saturday evening from a 20 ft ladder he was maybe 6 yards away almost behind me-I had to lean out-I "picked a spot" 6" under his body line/armpit and spined him-aim low then aim lower-such a thing as too close.You just have to think it through before you shoot and know whats happening with your shot.I am no shooting expert and a mediocre shot but I hunt-only-so it works for me and I'm not changing it.

[topcamp]

that right there is some fine eating..................

[lostaro]

All else being equal form-shot wise, my guess on shooting high at super close range would be that maybe we are "seeing" the arrow sub conciously. At close range the blur of the arrow tip will below your line of sight....so it creeps up to where you can see it and...whoosh....swing and a miss! Styk is correct, I don't look at the point...but maybe I see it anyway. Maybe, hell who knows. I think that may be what TC just said. I've confused myself. I know regardless of ground blind or tree stand...I want them as close as possible. A lot of guys don't like the straight down shot but I dig it and it works for me.
4nolz....Nice hog, looks like your method needs no tinkering.

[iron mike]

i facewalk when i'm close,i pull that knock back to the side of my eye (high cheek)and rip through,thats within 17 yards or so,no thinking required.shooting downhill or uphill i do the same. it's practical.my bows shoot pretty flat at about 70 plus,so i don't know how it works for others.still and all,i only high cheek inside 17 or maybe 20,otherwise i anchor back of jaw.

[whump]

congratulations on your hog Nolz , that's pretty cool .
I have a bud that is pretty impressive shooting in near total darkness and how he does it without seeing the arrow point i have no idea. When i shot instinctive I was aware of the arrow point and then before release I was looking only at the spot I wanted to hit, so I was using some form of gap . If I had been shooting purely instinctive I could shoot like my bud without being able to see anything but shapes and shadows . I think most of your quick shot trick shooters are basically instinctive shooters , I don't see how you could make up a gap that quick on a flying target taking a snap shot. I could take a snap shot and connect pretty consistent but I was still aware of the arrow point on the shot. A good dose of nerves will totally short circuit most peoples instinctive shooting abilities.

[MOUNTER]

That's a good way to describe it Randy! A non-aiming system or whatever. I think many people take the term instinctive too literally, when it's just a way to describe a shooting style. No ones saying they instinctively grabbed a bow and started pegging bullseyes, it takes practice like anything else. If you really want to break it down, the only true instinctive things are breathing, eating, sleeping, pissing and shitting! You know, the things a baby does. Everything else is a learned skill. There is no survival instinct or mateing instinct it all takes practice, especially if you want to be good at it!

Anyway thats how I do it as well and have shot quite a few hogs in the pitch dark with nothing but a black silouette to look at... I don't think it's any harder to shoot 3yrds or 20, but like the others have said it's easy to think, there's no way I'll miss this and let your form get a little sloppy or let your focus wander..... I do "pick a spot" a little lower than normal when close.... And Whump a good dose of nerves can screw up any shooting style... Even a compound shooter with a sight and peep... Been there, done that!

[Fuzzy Dog]

I do not use any type of aiming system, and truly do not even see my arrow in my periphial vision when I shoot. No yardage estimation or hold over/under. I know Joe and Will both shoot the same way. I shoot a bow almost every day of the year though and launch about a milyun arrows annually.

Starting with the obvious, I am nowhere near as a good a shot as you are and perfectly willing to concede that after a million arrows a year for as long as you've been shooting, you don't consciously use an aiming system. But, unless you're anchoring on your belt buckle, your peripheral vision, and hence your mind, both conscious and subconscious, know exactly where that arrow point is. I freely concede that you do not consciously see it, or concentrate on it, or use it at a conscious level, but your mind knows where it is and your eyes see it. And, after shooting a million arrows or so a year for many years, they know exactly where to put your bow hand, and hence the arrow point, to hit the spot you're concentrating on.

Because of my own vision anomalies, and hence the 11 zillion medical tests that the first one will inevitably buy you, I know to an absolute certainty that an object as long as an arrow does not drop out of your peripheral visions, or rise above it, for a minimum of 2' and probably more like 3' down or up, as relevant.

The human mind is the fastest computer there is. If you give it good form to work with, it will take in all of the information your eyes give it, find the last few dozen times you've made a shot at that same distance, pick the successful ones and put your bow hand where it belongs. Over the years you've given yours an incredible amount of data to use to set up the perfect shot - which as a result it can do far faster than you can think about aiming the shot. There are a few dozen ways to then fuck that shot up, but if you run your shot with good form, don't collapse, drop your bow hand, etc. it will be a good shot.