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Border Hex 7's

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Border Hex 7's

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:55 pm

check this out by Jparanee on AT... wild curves. Looks like it vibrates badly to me, but those guys seem to love shooting the bow.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2186286

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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Gino Bruno » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:48 pm

really really cool limbs!

right when i saw this thread i thought of the thread below. page two has a really crude drawing of that exact idea. geez i need to start building bows again! i miss it!

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1828&hilit=curled+limb
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Jim Casto Jr » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:54 pm

That's interesting. I went over to that thread you started Gino.... now, I'm convinced ole Sid (s) should be cutting you a check. No doubt he read that one. :o
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Gino Bruno » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:18 pm

LOL!!! nah...... i think Sid has had a lot of good ideas over the years. he's had by far the most radical limbs on the market for a long time, this newest set just looks like a natural progression to the next step. bet that limb design has an incredible FX curve.

i constantly have bow building ideas running through my mellon..... one of my buddies was at my house today and he was looking at my bow that i did the long-winded build along on and wants to build a bow. i told him to come check out how i built it and logged on here to show him. he's helping me in the final stages of this remodel (what has now become a 100% remodel and a 50x52 shop...... 3 years running now :cry: ) and as he was leaving we were looking in the bowyers gallery. he left and i kept working on the interior trim ( the smell of cutting knotty alder trim has been reminding me all day of what shedua smells like :mrgreen: ) . an hour or so he texted me for the link to poa. i was eating dinner and decided to take a look around here since i seldom get a chance to log on. this thread was the first thing i saw. since i still constantly think about building bows and always have ideas going through my head like some sort of savant (lol), it immediately brought up the old thought i had in that thread.
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:44 pm

I was thinking about this and actually looked at that old thread and I was thinking that a thin set of parallel lams comibed with a series of power lams that sort of staggered down the first 8 to 9'' of the limb may be a way to get to that curl with some stability. Kind of like how Kirk does his laminated wedge but extended down into the meat of the limb. I'm just wondering if you could get this done with glass alone or would carbon be required. Maybe carbon in the core for stability or a thin uniweft?

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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Gino Bruno » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:51 pm

Dave- bias carbon would be an absolute must. with limb tips that are that far past the string plane they would probably not even be able to keep the string on the bow without it. extreme torsional stability would be required..... glass with wood and/or foam cores would not do it regardless of where power lams are used.... a quasi-isotropic lay-up of carbon (and high modulus carbon at that) would be the only way to go. i'd imagine thats what Sid is using and i'd imagine that they are pretty darn stable too. hope this helps
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Gino Bruno » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:57 pm

in nearly every instance i can think of and have tested, power lams will reduce torsional stability (but can in some cases actually increase vertical stability if done properly). the reason is you are stiffening a section of limb...... and in order to maintain a specific draw-weight less material will have to be used elsewhere. its a vicious cycle of give and take. if i wanted to build the most stable limb possible and NOT use a bias composite, power lams/wedges would always be omitted from the equation.
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:11 pm

I was thinking more of a set of very thin power lams to create the rapid tsper needed in the limb as discussed in that old thread then keeping the last section where the hard curl was parallel with a thin but stiff set of parallels to keep it from being so thin at the tips as to reduce stability, so the last 10" would be like a recurve with no taper at all, just using width to 'dial' in the draw characteristics alone.

On my latest curve I just used a parallel that is full thickness 2-3" past the wedge then rapidly taper it down the last 2" to push my bend out further and it actually dramatically increased my vertical stability as well as bumped my speed up with a .002 limb core taper. These radical curves tho are a different animal and I realize that.
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:37 pm

There's a still shot of the limbs hat looks like a pretty rapid taper down to the break of the big curve and then it looks to slow down a bit in the main curl to tips. Gino where would one lay his hands on bias carbon like that where it would come in sheets thin enuff to work with?
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Re: Border Hex 7's

Postby Gino Bruno » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:58 am

yes, that limb seems to work /open up quite a bit (as it should). i doubt there are any tip wedges in it but it would not be a surprise if it was. my guess is that the progressively recurved tip is what helps keep it stiff. my limbs in my faster bows are very narrow like his and this also helps to keep the tips from opening up too fast while still allowing the entire limb to work in unison. it gives the illusion of a very stiff tip even though it is still working to an extent.

i know you said it seems to vibrate a lot but i couldn't really see it in that video he posted (unless you are talking about limb bounce). my guess is that limb is pretty darn quiet since the string is barely coming off the limb at full draw then gradually making contact for a good majority of the powerstroke vs. slapping it at the end like may recurves do. hard to tell from a video in a basement tho..... just my guess ;)

have they posted any performance numbers? my guess is that it is very high just watching the limbs work. narrow outboard limbs (less wind drag), looks like the FX curve would be stupid efficient and the limb looks to be working completely in unison from what little i could see. if it is fast, i'd imagine its pretty darn quite too..... less stored energy wasted on noise/vibration.

arrowlauncherdj wrote: Gino where would one lay his hands on bias carbon like that where it would come in sheets thin enuff to work with?


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4292 :D

there was a company out of seattle that i had make me some pretty darn good (and expensive) carbon. i'll have to dig up their contact info. its been so long since i've bought any that there may be a ton of different ones than in the link above. CST and ACP will custom lay-up whatever you want. ACP was great to work with. ACP was building carbon for blackswan at one time and i also believe centaur (don't quote me on that though). i had some layed up a few years ago and cote put some in one of his recurves that yohon got to fondle on a hunt in WI. he and njstickbow can vouch for how torsionally stiff it was. those limbs and any of the ones i've built with that same lay-up are as torsionally stiff as any of the higher end ILF limbs with the exception of the win-ex/Xpressions, and INNOs. it is 5 ply 45/45,90/0, 45/45, 90/0, 45/45. i've used that same lay-up in many of my recurves but the stuff i bought from the co. in seattle was very high modulus (high fiber count) and very very torsionally stiff. i think it was a 4 ply if i remember correctly. i still have some in the shop..... i'll look at it in the morning. the stuff ive always had layed up from acp is PLENTY stiff enough to go radical with on recurves.
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