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Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

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Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Cutty » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:43 am

Noticed something the other day, the bows I have now I shoot the most accurately Hanky style, don't have radiused shelves...and thinking back over the bows I've owned, that none of ones that were easy to "point and shoot" had much shelf radius, and none had that distinctive ACS radius (couple other r/d longbows have it too) at the rear of the shelf.

Doesn't just apply to longbows, either, the recurve I consider to be the easiest one to point and shoot out of all, is my Palmer, and that shelf seems to balance the arrow much farther forward, and narrow, so the arrow leaves right above your index finger knuckle, and is a natural extension of your pointing finger.

Hmmm...I guess Mike Palmer does know a thing or two about building a 'curve for hunters.

Of course, the HH bows all get the arrow exactly where I'm talking about--

BUT...

Only once you learn to get your hand more into the grip, with your wrist inline.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Cutty » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:46 am

Another confirmation of the need to have the arrow in the right place if you shoot natural point of aim, is how difficult I find it is to do it off of a shelf, especially if you need to cant to make a shot.

It's like the difference between being able to touch your nose with your finger, effortlessly, without thinking, without looking, and trying to do the same thing holding a pencil.

Try it...oh, and Feral, use the eraser end, not the sharp end. :P
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby cst » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:37 pm

You know, I shoot my Sapphire (lots of curve to the shelf) as well as I shoot my Sheep or Fly. Hmmmm. I think it might be you Pete. All this stuff is pretty personal though. I shoot with a grip that shouldn't work on any of the bows I shoot and I use it on all of them with satisfactory results.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Hank » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:27 pm

First, if you have a bow that can be torqued, the radiused shelf maybe be needed more to mask it. Even if the shelf and side plate on a bow is flat, small contact points added (leather/velcro) can easily narrow the contact area.

I am not sold on the idea that cut past center is the end all be all of great tuning and arrow flight either. While it maybe easier to tune, I wonder if taking the time to super tune a setup that isn't cut past center, is actually more forgiving.

Cutty, I am sure tiller may also effect your pointy impact point, as well. The Martin older ML series of longbows have a much shorter bottom limb and they hit lower on the target face than some of my other bows.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Cutty » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:53 pm

Well, my thoughts on this one are still a work in progress.

First of all, NO DOUBT, that a radiused shelf gives you less fletch contact and cleaner arrow flight.

But, if you peak the shelf at the back of your hand (rear of the shelf), doesn't that raise the arrow higher above your hand?

And doesn't that do the same thing in terms of forgiveness, as adding reflex to your riser? I mean, the arrow's last point of contact is further behind your riser...?

That's kind of what I was after with my post on the ACS riser having an "overdraw" effect. Why don't we see overdraws anymore? Because they hurt accuracy. Why did they hurt accuracy? Because you were adding reflex by moving your rest back.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Hank » Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:25 pm

I think all the ACS CX shelf is doing, is trying to get the arrow contact point directly above the contact point of the hand, to minimize torque. Remember, OL didn't set out to build the worlds most accurate bow, then make it as fast as he could.... he set out to build the fastest bow and then try and make it as accurate as he could. He likes mass weight and arrows with high FOC, which is great for putting bandaids on things (like torque.) (I only hunt deer and turkey, I am not worried about KE and high FOC for penetration.... a well tuned setup is more than enough)

Pointability has more to do with grip pressure and tiller. Asbell is right on a low wrist vs high wrist grip and their influence. He says that a low wrist grip is like shooting off an elevated rest... if you grab a Hill style grip, the center line of your arm comes out between your middle and ring fingers, if you grab a grip with a medium wrist, the center line of your arm comes out around your index finger. A medium wrist grip with an elevated rest puts the arrow as far away from the center line of your arm as a low wrist grip does.

I have shot BW curves that impact very high and the Martin ML series longbows that impact 6" lower. If my natural point method works better with the ML series longbow and I can shoot decent with it, should I order a $1,000 BW? or keep shooting my ML-10 Longbow that I paid $106 for brand new? This also shows that impact point, not grip shape/radiused shelf is more important in my opinion, if that is important to you.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Cutty » Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:59 pm

Hmmm, definitely food for thought there Hank.

But why don't you just tweak your impact point with your nock height? That's what I do. And I thought that's what Rick Welch does too?
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Hank » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:41 pm

Tweak the nocking point within reason.
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby Cutty » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:09 am

Yeah, but you can tweak it A LOT more shooting carbon versus even aluminum.

That's a HUGE plus for the Natural Point of Aim style, and something that doesn't get talked about at all.

Rick Welch LIVES off heavy draw weight, light carbons, strong bow arm, high anchor--

...and SMOKES the "elitists."
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Re: Non-Radiused shelf for natural point of aim?

Postby shafted » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:46 pm

What's a elitist?????
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