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What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby BLACK WOLF » Sat May 31, 2008 9:48 pm

Tom,

Would you define a subconscious release to involve a release that surprises the archer?

The only time I've ever felt surprised by a release is when I was using one of those back tension releases on a friend's new compound. I hated that feeling ;)

When I release with my recurve...I release when I feel my sight picture is correct and it's a conscious release with a direct 2" follow through straight back across my jaw.

I wonder if developing a subconscious release would help eliminate target panic for some of us that struggle with it???

I struggle with it to some degree or another on about 20% of my shots...but most of my flinches still end up in the kill zone.

I know if I could completely eliminate the TP...I would be a happy camper.

The blank bale work has helped me emensely in allowing me to control my TP for at least 80% of the time by reingraining what solid shooting form and a good release feels like.

Maybe I should just stick to blank bale work for awhile without shooting at a target.

What have you found to be the avareage time it takes for someone to engrain a movement into muscle/motor memory?

What are your thoughts.

Ray ;)
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:44 am

Joe,(njstykbow)...I am enjoying your "take/read" of the thread. While we've never met, from your questions I get the feeling you are an experienced and capable archer...keep asking/inquiring...thanks. OK, to answer your question. My intent at explaining one's "condition at full draw" and using the word "static" was to imply, the difference between kinetic and static energy in terms of physics. Kinetic energy is one of motion. An archer at full draw most certainly is applying "pulling", "equilizing"(push-pull), "pushing"," back tension" etc. I was going to leave this aspect of the shot for a little further down the road(so to speak) but now's as good a time to get into it as any.

EVERY archer has a "motor system". As I've indicated above, there are only 3possibilities: Pulling, Pushing, Equalizing. As most of us are "pullers" we don't realize the existance of other "ways" of maintaining the "static" condition I mentioned at full draw earlier. As a "puller" an archer comes to anchor with a solid bowarm(relatively) and a string hand/arm that is maintaining the anchor at full draw without gain or loss of draw length..ie pulling..or..tension.

In a "time line", ALL of our shots are the same. They look like this: 1.Arrange form parts 2.Come to anchor and arrange the form solidly, without changes 3.Calibrate/Aim 4. Commit to the shot 5. Run one's "motor" through Conclusion.

What I wrote earlier about "taking what ya have at full draw thru conclusion IS how one gets past shot commitment without a conscious "triggering"... The application, or probably better stated, "continued application of the pulling(in the case of a pulling archer) thru his conclusion is the way of a subconscious release. One who is simply taking what he has at "commit" , thru his conclusion has no "trigger" in his shot.

Well, it's time to head off to Church..More later. Hope I've answered your inquiry Joe. Thanks for your thoughts..Keep em commin.. And all others as well!!

Tom
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby Spider 1 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:51 am

Tom, thanks for taking the time to keep this going. I worked on the bale from about 5 ft yesterday. I shot 20 arrows taking a minute between shots to stretch and relax my bow arm elbow since I'm fighting a case of tennis elbow (I spent an afternoon last month shooting way too much and too fast). The one aspect of my shot that I wasn't happy with was that I wasn't drawing and holding with my back. I've been using my arms and shoulder instead. The bale work helped me isolate that part of the shot without worrying about the target itself.

One thing about your last post that I can't quite get yet, and it always confused me some. You say we must consiously anchor solidly (I get that), and we must consiously conclude the shot (I get that too). But the release in between must be subconsiously executed? How do you subconsiously do something that is right in the middle of and a part of 2 consious efforts? Is there a type of training drill that can be used?
like twenty serpents bound together, hissed the flying arrows feather.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby superkodiak38 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:14 am

Spider, I can't answer for Tom but in my case I count out my steps. Anchor is a seperate step and so is the conclusion it's what Tom described as running the motor to get me to conclusion where the shot happens. In other words, for me, anchor is given a number and once its reached I call that number then to get to the next number, conclusion, I expand my draw and the shot happens. I then reach my conclusion position and call its number as a reminder, reinforcer to get to that position. Hey Tom if Im doing it wrong punch me in the head or something :D
When you take your kid hunting and he says thank you and tells you how much he loves being in the woods with you, your day just isn't going to get any better than that.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:09 am

Spider, I'm sorry to have confused you. I'll try and do better now. In summary, while it's possible to "run a shot" virtually totally in the subconscious, for the most part the "concious part" of the shot begins in assembling the form parts...continues to full draw and goes right up to one's decision to "commit to the shot".(the commital occurs when one's aiming/calibration/picture or what ever or however you believe you decide that all is "right" and you can permit the shot to continue.) On commitment,(and here there are a number of ways to describe what comes next)..the archer now continues to "engage his motor system", taking it thru his chosen conclusion. Arriving at conclusion "happens"...it happens subconsciously because after much work on the bale you have taken it from a conscious act to a subconscious act. An archer should be able to recognize differences/inconsistencies in shots.....Meaning... after an archer has trained his shot on the bale and "knows" it, running it(as discribed above) he know when it's "his" and when it's something "less than" what he's trained.

SuperK38...your description sounds pretty good to me. Please don't ever be reluctant to offer your thoughts/opinion/$.02cents worth :D
I would note, as above, that one's "system" can for the most part be assembled consciously(as you've indicated with the numbers you mention..one way) but recall that any conscious action beyond "commiting to the shot" is likely some involvemnet in "triggering the shot" and not a good thing.

Tom
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:15 am

I wanted to note separately how impressed I am with you guys!...I certainly never expected to be so warmly welcomed, and NEVER expected this kind of response to the thread.

I've been exceptionally lucky to have had the opportunity to shoot extensively virtually my entire life..and...be coached by the best shooters in our country(firearms) and IMO the best coach and friend a man could have in Len Cardinale....Thanks.

Tom
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby njstykbow » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:51 am

To all,

Here's a short, non-scientific antecdote to Tom's requirement of finishing to completion. I have always been a strong proponent of follow-through on every shot (it doesn't happen every time, but it should!). The problem is...although I know to follow through...unless you have a goal or "a place" to complete the follow-through...you'll never consistently be striving to get there. I thought more about what Tom stated about the OLY archers "touching their shoulder" upon completion of the shot and it got me thinking (usually a bad thing :( ) that I don't know where my release hand ends up, other than the fact I try to keep it somewhere near my face instead of slapping the side of the head of the guy standing next to me. :o

I did a VERY short bale session and only focused on finding a conclusion for my shot. Well, guess what happened? My index finger now touches the back of my neck (that's my conclusion) and the other parts of my follow-through fell into place. No more collapsing the bow arm, no more right shots from lack of back tension (been struggling with that for a year) and my groups at distance...as good as they've ever been. Now keep in mind...I'm by nature a very impatient person...and the above results were attained after 12 shots on the bale at close range.

You know the old adage...You can't teach an old dog new tricks? Wrong. Keep it coming Tom and I'm going to to going back South and whipping a certain Yohon's butt on the 3D's! ;)

Some of the things you're espousing I've never heard of before and some are reminders of things I knew and have forgotten. My questions about the things I've never heard before are not questioning whether they work or not...I'm just trying to get an explanation for why they work or why they're a necessary part of the process so my brain (which is limited in it's ability to function) can come to grips with a new strategy and believe in it. Otherwise, it's impossible to commit yourself to the step...which seems to be part of the whole process.

Thanks :D
Joe
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby Spider 1 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:10 pm

Tom, you didn't confuse me! I was confused a long time ago,LOL! I've wondered about this subconscious release ever since I l heard about it from Bernie Pellerite, several years ago. If I understand you all correctly, I consciously anchor, then I consciously conclude by putting my hand or bringing my hand to a pre-specified place. The release must happen at some point, it is practiced so much that it happens automatically when I move to conclude. I don't "think" about releasing, I "think" about concluding.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby southpawshooter » Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:26 pm

Now that is the clearest explanation of the 'surprise' release I have ever heard.
>>>-----> Scott Frost
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:11 pm

Spider, VERY GOOD!!! last post!!!

Another "consideration" is that the application of "back tension" (I use that term because everyone likes to hear that but if your motor system is Pulling then the verbage would be something like, "After commitment, one "continues" the pulling thru his conclusion." The same could be said about a pushing or equalizing motor.) Anyway... the "application" is applied in a l i n e a r manner, as opposed to expidentially. What I mean by that is that the back tension is applied at a constant rate...as opposed to speeding up as it is applied. This may be a bit confusing but if you consider it kind oflike "velocity" as opposed to "accelleration" it might help. :D

Spider, IMO the business of written communication is a particularly delicate one. Just a word or two...a comma in the wrong place... and intent and direction can be misconscrued. That's why I always invite openly any questions...to make "it" clear..or at least more clear.

Southpaw... Glad ya like what yur readin!....(did you go to the last Wittingham?..Didn't see ya. I would have enjoyed walking thru the course with you, shootin and BSing. :lol:

Tom
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