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What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby njstykbow » Sat May 31, 2008 11:55 am

Tom,

I'm going to throw my .02 cents into the bail shooting. Waaaay too many years ago...back in my FITA days...many coaches (possibly incorrectly) encouraged shooting close up with your eyes closed. I've used it many times over the years for one main purpose that I'll address shortly. I agree with your approach to blank bale shooting to engrain good fundamentals and to establish what works for our form and what doesn't. I also agree that shooting only with your eyes closed will do nothing immediately to help you shoot with your open.

But.......If an archer (FITA, 3D, Hunting, etc.) has never established what an uninhibited shot and the subsequent release and follow-through feel like...the eyes closed method has some significant merit. If a shot is practiced with this method, the mind and body have a way of encouraging a "natural" set up and shot sequence. That is...proper alignment, back tension and push/pull through the shot...all without the encumberances of aiming.

Now.....once the brain recognizes that sequence and how it should feel....I then think it's the appropriate time to take the next step...that being eyes open, blank bale work.

All the above is only based upon personal experiences and I don't have any facts to back the above up. It's just what has worked for me since being taught this method almost 30 years ago.

My feeling is...there are a bunch of guys out there who suffer either from a degree or variation of TP, or who are so consumed by focusing on and worrying about hitting their target...they've NEVER shot an arrow without the pressures that go along with aiming and therefor, don't know (or I should say...their brain doesn't know) what a proper shot should feel like. Because of that...they don't know what they're striving for.

Fire away! 8-)

Joe
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sat May 31, 2008 2:35 pm

Good Afternoon Joe...and....your $.02 is most welcome. I'd say first that there are some good shooters who do train with closed eyes, and as you've noted it's p a r t of their routine. Addressing, "But.......If an archer (FITA, 3D, Hunting, etc.) has never established what an uninhibited shot and the subsequent release and follow-through feel like...the eyes closed method has some significant merit." I'd respond that, in my experience and many many others who Len Cardinale has coached, the benefit of proper bale use IS that one CAN develop that "uninhibited shot..." you mention.

At this point, with absolutely no intention to inhibit input to this, it's time to say that proper bale understanding/use isn't something that comes with the first arrow of attempt. It's probably because it does take a bit of "work" that many find it unsatisfying-of only limitted potential-not for them....I've heard these and many other complaints over the years and to that my $.02cents worth is, "Good shooting does not come easy. It must be worked at properly in order to achieve more than a modecum of success." Ultimately, those who DO invest the time in learning the bale, receive a most precious gift, one that they embrace and would not abandon under any circumstances. I'd also note that there is NEVER only one way to "Skin a cat." IF a champion has found a way to win that only embraces the target, then "Good Luck and God speed."....though there is MUCH evidence to the contrary IMO, just look into the Korean(and other) archery training.

I'd invite both Steertalker and Yohon to add their comments regarding bale here shortly. It's always good to get "input" from a couple others who have "invested and reaped the benefit.." :D

OK, so in summary, while there are some fine archers who do bale shoot eyes closed on occasion, it's not the way I'd recommend. From the prospective that I've learned/been coached/experienced, it is most likely an indication of a lack of proper understanding of the bale and/or a less than totally honest self evaluation of one's shot (...the TP thing). Another "mentality" is the "More arrows=better shooting". That's professed by many self educated/trained archers, many of whom claim to be "totally instinctive" and simply can't entertain ANYTHING but that which "they know in their heart of hearts is right". :shock: :oops: :lol: :lol: ......I'm sorry for laughing at that last sentence, but I subscribe to the old addage, "Ignorance is curable. Stupid is forever." Anyone who believes as such is simply not curable. :D

Time to go to "Shot parts"?

Tom
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby oscar » Sat May 31, 2008 4:51 pm

I'm ready any time you are.
There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by the tail and face the situation.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby KCummings » Sat May 31, 2008 5:36 pm

Dang, good stuff Tom.

Soaking it all in here.

:!:

KPC
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby TradArcher » Sat May 31, 2008 5:53 pm

There's no reason that we can go back to talking about the bale but let me go ahead a little and start talking about "the shot" a little. I mentioned earlier on that virtually everything in firearms also most closely parallels in archery. I'll continue that as I have a "soft spot" for my LEO brothers ..and...because it will also provide an immediate and close analogy for others to utilize.

I'm really not going to provide anything of a profound nature here. You all know about "form parts". What I do want to "put out there" are two things that are absolute musts. One is that if you believe you can consciously execute/trigger your release then (in my, and many outstanding coaches and outstanding archers) your shooting is doomed to mediocracy.(at best). Simply stated(in firearms terminology) "Ya can't jerk the trigger and expect to achieve consistent/predictable accuracy." In archery terms, "Ya can't consciously release with consisttency." Believe me when I say that I've heard just about all of "it" when it comes to dead release yada yada yada. Bottom line is, if ya know when it's gonna happen, it simply is inferior to having a subconscious letgo.

It really is incumbent on me to describe the second the second critical element of a shot...It's the conclusion. Now some might be thinking, "It's done when the arrow is gone."...My response, "Not necessarily"...Let me elaborate. As an integral part of every archer's shot MUST be a definate/defined conclusion. If ya don't have it, ya simply are working under a disadvantage.

Conclusions can be visual-physical-or audio. It really doesn't make any difference what you use, but an archer must have one! To describe/show an example of a "physical" conclusion, all one need do is watch an olympic archer and their (for the most part) "shoulder touch" conclusion.....I know, I know...I can't bring myself to do something like that. It just isn't me. I don't like the way it looks.( and any one of a 100 other silly excuses for ignoring this most important aspect of one's shooting)

At anchor, one is maintaining a static condition that is arranged according to one's own stature and composition. One can only "commit" to the shot when you've arranged to a point in time where there are NO CHANGES. (ie, no gaining or loosing of draw length, aka changes in tension). I mention this because with regard to one's conclusion it is most revelant. The archer takes what he "has" at the point in time of his stabilized anchor and once "committed" brings "that" not just TO...but THROUGH, his chosen conclusion; thereby negating any affect of the archer to affect the arrow at the time of execution.

(I)Hope ya are gettin my "drift" here. It's important to "get" that without a conclusion, one can far more easily stop running his shot too early, and affect the arrow. We all know that when shooting in our back yards we're archers of a "world class level" (yea right! :oops: :lol: ) and once we leave the "comfort zone" the world starts to crumble and we fall far short of our expectations AND the shot we think we have adequately prepared.

So...in wrapping up this post, we need to accept that nothing other than a subconscious "release" is acceptable and that we achieve this by arranging one's shot at anchor, without change...Then "commit" to the shot and proceed to "take" what we had at full draw and bring all that not just to but thru one's conclusion..

Hope the soup's tastin good to you guys. I'm doin my best to stirr adequately. :D

Tom
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby njstykbow » Sat May 31, 2008 6:34 pm

Tom,

I'm with you on most of the above post.

But...
At anchor, one is maintaining a static condition that is arranged according to one's own stature and composition. One can only "commit" to the shot when you've arranged to a point in time where there are NO CHANGES. (ie, no gaining or loosing of draw length, aka changes in tension).


I'm a little confused by this piece. You've used the reference to OLY archers and their follow through to the shoulder, so I'll stay with the OLY theme. If the same OLY archer were to maintain a static draw at the time of the release...how would they come through the clicker. I know the clicker is form of draw check, but it is also utilized to trigger a subconscious release (which we know is a good thing). I was always of the belief (not necessarily the correct one?) that if an archer maintaining a static draw, they were losing back tension.

I was going to ask you about this in a separate post, but since it came up in yours, I'll address it. If that clutters what you're doing here...say so and I'll start another thread just on back tension. Is it possible to maintain back tension without increasing the draw length? If possible, could you explain how one goes about establishing/recognizing proper back tension? In my shooting of bows (post FITA), I've lost the concept of proper back tension and I attributed that to the loss of a clicker.

Good stuff. :D

Joe
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby Stykshooter » Sat May 31, 2008 6:58 pm

Before "practice" yesterday I walked up to about 3 yards from my bale and shot a total of 40 shots, taking my time, pulling through and generally just enjoying what a good shot feels like. Something really jumped out at me. I shoot a lot of field arcehry and one of the toughest targets to score well on for me is the "Bunny" targets. Little targets that you shoot four arows at inside of 10 yards. I have always attributed it to the fact that they are so close my mind convinces itself that there is no way to miss. So I then proceed to prove it wrong. I tend to give up on the shots a touch early at the really close shots, almost like they aren't worth my effort. I really struggle trying to pull through my shots without a spot to aim at so yesterday I was "aiming" at individual arrow holes as I was doing my bale work. Once I settled down after a dozen arrows or so I found that I was sticking my arrow in the existing arrow hole about 80% of the time. If I could just transefer this to a real field course there would be a 20 with 4 X's every time.

I went on and shot another 20 arrows at various yardages like I normally do but it was pretty much a waste of time as I was wore out after the bale shooting. A combination of holding longer at full draw, which I have been striving for over the past 5-10 years, and actually using my back muscles to pull through the shot whipped me. Although some days I shoot pretty well it doesn't take but a session or two up close to the bale to realize that I have been in a large part doing it wrong.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby PAarcher » Sat May 31, 2008 9:19 pm

All right Tom. I am totally with you on the follow through. I've proven that to myself time after time. I'm having trouble turning over the release to the subconcious. When I do and i conclude with a good follow through I almost always make a great shot.
I need to make a proper bale. I know what a great shot feels like. I need to ingrain it.
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby superkodiak38 » Sat May 31, 2008 9:30 pm

When I begin a session on the bale I "run" my normal shot maybe 5-6 times and then try to improve or tweak a specific step in the process,( maybe back tension and conclusion) once I am satisfied with the "adjustment" I try and incorporate it in several, 8-10, shots on the bale ending on what feels like a good clean shot where the part I was working on was incorporated. What I described may take me 20-25 minutes or so shooting maybe 30 arrows total. Some times this is it for the session and sometimes this is followed by stumping, punching paper or a round of 3-D.

I am sure there is much more to using the bale but this is my level of experience with it so far. Does this sound beneficial ? Any input is appreciated :)
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Re: What's it take to execute a "Good shot"?

Postby Dan in MI » Sat May 31, 2008 9:39 pm

Joe,

I'm gonna take a stab at your question.

If you separate you aiming/anchoring portion from the release you will hit a static point where you are locking in your anchor and aim. Once all that is locked in or set in your mind then you start subconsciuosly working on the release which returns to the dynamic mode of increasing back tension until the arrow is let go and you proceed to conclusion.

If you don't have that separation then you are always moving which makes it difficult to get a well aimed shot, but is the root of the "instinctive" guru's technique whether you call it snap shooting, touch and go or whatever.
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