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just some interesting high speed video.

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just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Gino Bruno » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:24 pm

just thought these were kind of interesting. look at how little side to side paradox the three under shot has compared to the split...... but how much more vertical paradox it has than split. the 3 under was a string walker and his fingers are well under the nock...... i'd love to find some video of 3 under with the fingers against the nock to see how much less vertical paradox is present and to see how much, if any side to side exists.

the vibration of the arrow on the 3 under shot also helps explain why 3 under is louder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkpmgdv6h_0



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNslUNB ... re=related
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Bender » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:47 pm

What is up with that?
Naturally this begs for an explanation. I have an idea, but I'm not claiming that its the only explanation.
On the 3 under video watch the nock end of the arrow carefully. On release the nock end rises sharply by a large amount. I'm guessing that this is due to A) the sting grip is considerably below the nock point, and B) its being shot from a compound. The other 2 videos are of recurves. I suspect that the compund in that particular video didn't have very good level nock travel during the power stroke. So, I'm just guessing here, but I bet that the "artificially" induced vertical flex on the compound has become the dominant factor. Its masking or even over riding horizontal flex.
Like you said Gino, what we now need to see is 3 under, fingers up at the nock point. But perhaps more important would be to see it with a recurve.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Stykshooter » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Man! Look at how rock solid that second archer's bow arm stays through the shot!

Cool video but for it to have real meaning for me for comparasim purposes, it would have to be the same bow and arrow combination. One of those set ups may have an arrow that is under/over spined, causing the side to side paradox. It would be interesting to watch the same archer with the same set up shoot both styles.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Jim Casto Jr » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:40 pm

Gee Whiz! That first video is really spooky. I had the wife come look at it, and she wanted to know when "I" did that. Daughter comes in and says, "Hey dad, I didn't know you messed with YouTube." I can't convince the youngest son it's NOT me. Gee Whiz! :roll:

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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Interesting to me is that they all have such a static release. I'd love to see a dynamic release like Rod Jenkins teaches and its affect on the lateral oscillations especially. On these folks, it seems like the string clearing the fingers would exacerbate the lateral oscillations.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Gino Bruno » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:21 pm

every other high speed shot i have seen with fingers always has the horizontal paradox. i am sure the wheels have something to do with the shot but maybe not. i have always wondered if there was something like a miniature dry fire when the string has almost no tension at the moment of release where the 3 fingers under the nock where which causes the extra noise. would also partially explain why the nock point is drastically higher that split.

what i envision with the nock point is at the moment of release, the upper limb is pulling hard which is also raising the nock of the arrow up while talking up a small portion of the slack until the lower limb slams home to bring the string completely tight (the lower limb slamming the string would explain the vibration seen in the arrow in the first vid)..... almost like compounds that don't have very good level nock travel. in fact, maybe this is what is happening in that first video is that the upper cam is raising the string to take up some of the slack until the lower cam catches up...... it certainly looks like the nock comes back down, and very quickly. i guess we can guess until the cows come home but what we really need to do is have Rob shoot some video both in 3 under and split with the same bow/arrow combo (tuned for both release styles of course) to really get an idea as to what is going on.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby whump » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:28 pm

Whump sez; flexing picked up when the cam came out of the valley and hit the high point. I have looked at several high speed vids and it is interesting to see how much wiggle is actually in an arrow even several feet from the bow. This is also a good lesson in tuning as well as you possibly can. If you take a lot of shots close to the stand like I do and you have a crapy tuned set up it will show up big time on penetration. That wiging and wagging is amplified 10 fold on a badly tuned set up and it will kill your penetration on a 5-10yd shot. Large fletching will straighten the arrow after the 10yd point but I still strive for the best tuned set up I can muster because of the close shots I take.
I would like to see if there is any difference in flexing with an extreme weight forward set up with an arrow that would normally be over spined as opposed to a set up with an arrow spined close to the bow weight, moderate point weight and a over all weight in the same range.[ As in flexing of the shafting on release]. I have had good results with a heavy shaft with moderate point weight of about 160 to 180gns and over all arrow weight of about 650 -675gns for complete pass thrus on Q2 and facing shots where the arrow has to pass thru brisket and muscle as opposed to a rib cage which is easy to shoot thru.[whitetails] Hunt Safe.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby rwsbow » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:23 pm

Also remember that a compound bow is a closed-circuit machine...there is little continual string oscillation once the string is released and continues in the channel of the cam/wheel..the closer to brace height, the more the string is restricted within the confines of the cam/wheel channel...much like a string groove in a recurve but amplified MANY times over...almost from the moment of release..

it's fun watching those videos !! :)
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Bender » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:43 pm

rws, I think what you're saying makes some sense. That's why speed balls, or several crimp on nocks, (properly placed) can actually increase speed by a few fps on a compound. As it was explained to me, that bit of interia dragging on the string actually improves speed by damping stray string movement and helping the string feed straight into the cam grooves. Which also explains why I saw a few fps gain with speed balls on a recurve. Helps the string fall in line with the string groove in the limb. Which in turn explains why there was no gain when I tried them with a longbow. And of course following all that, we can surmise that string silencers generally DON'T give you a few fps, because despite their small inertia, they also generate drag, far outweighing the tiny gain that might be had from stabilizing the string.
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Re: just some interesting high speed video.

Postby Bender » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:04 pm

http://www.youtube.com/user/redneb69#p/ ... RFOLKN0nVI

http://www.youtube.com/user/redneb69#p/ ... VtcuZ_wRYk

3 Under-Arrow travels straight forward
Split-Arrow nock end drops

I believe though that the drop with split is an artifact created by how the string leaves my fingers. I would hesitate to say that it happens all the time to everybody.

I only get 1000 fps with this new camera. I hope to get better footage in the future. I've only had it 4 days.
I'm able to alter playback speed on the camera, on my computer, and when I put it on my TV. Those all make it quite clear. Unfortunately I don't seem able to slow down the play back once its loaded on You Tube.
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