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Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

A place to discuss shooting styles, form, aiming systems, experiences, etc...

Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:26 pm

My paw-n-law shot recurves for about 40yrs, til compounds took over... he still shoots an Oneida... to keep with the recurve theme, but shoots a sight. He is a funny, but matter of fact kind of guy. He has basically calls anything without a sight instinctive. So to him, "instinctive" is nothing more than shooting without a sighting aid mounted on the bow. I talked to him about gap, point of aim, "snap shooting" , whatever other terms you want to use. He was like... what's the difference, you are still aiming, no matter what you call it. he said there were very few times that he made and "instinctive" shot in his life shooting without a sight aid... one was an elk charging blindly, and the others were at grouse up somewhere in Canada. He hit the elk, its on his wall. It was what he called an " OH SHIT shot"

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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby brinkwolf » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:30 pm

You know I have been shooting since I could hold a bow and pull it back. My heros were Howard Hill and Fred Bear and just in the past few years I have become a big fan of Byron Fergusons. All these guys were and are(Byron still alive) great shots and legends and all them used some form of aiming method(mostly gap shooting). Howard Hill even made a couple of comments when asked about instinctive shooting. The first was that only the first shot is truly an instinctive shot and something was learned there after. The second was that he had seen plenty of instinctive shooters but no good ones(his words not mine but then again Mr. Hill could back up what he said). It's funny how instinctive shooting has taken off so much in the last few years. Everyone now is claiming to be an instictive shot and use no form of reference or aiming method. I do believe that good form is key to good shooting and yes most every good coach won't even mention aiming but teach only form. I myself don't conciously aim up close but when the range gets farther I revert to gap shooting. As for the shooting in the dark without a reference, Daryl Quidort claimed he could shoot in a totally dark room using only a laser pointer for light on the target and Rod Jenkins put him to the test. He found that his normal group opened up double and for the first time he was looking for a reference point to aim. Now this doesn't mean VooDoo can't, everyone here seems to think he's a freak of nature or something. I know I can't because during training when I was a cop we did simulated night shooting at the indoor range. I couldn't even see the target till the first shot lit it up from just a few feet away. So what ever you claim to use or be the first thing you need is a good solid repeatable form and then the method you choose to shoot.
Last edited by brinkwolf on Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby AROMAKR » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:08 pm

Bender:
I'll admit I haven't read any of the other reply's so what I'm about to say may have already been said. You are obviously an intelligent person, however I think maybe you are putting way too much scientific thought into something that may be as simple as, some people have the ability too shoot "instinctively" while some don't. This may be overly simplistic, however take two people that I'm very familiar with Ken Wilhelm and Howard Hill they both had the abilities to do things with a bow and arrow that in my opinion has never been seen since and might never be seen again. Howard under huge pressure, where human life was at stake was able to execute shots that were unbelievable. Prunes off a mans head, shooting men off galloping horses, cigarettes out of peoples mouths. Ken did many of the same things, but in addition in 1929 while playing in an exhibition baseball game against the New York Yankee's Ken he threw 15 pitches to Babe Ruth and struck him out 5 times, so is it like throwing a baseball? You know we can all throw a baseball, but how many of us can do it really well? Those that can are most likely playing in the major's. Look at some of the throws that have been made over the years, how were they accomplished. Yes it was a conditioned reflex, its not something your going to do from day one, it takes many years of practice and coaching. Some will be able to do it, some will not. I believe its that simple. And I also believe those that can't do it will say its impossible, that's just human nature!!!!
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Bender » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:15 pm

AROMAKR, am I over thinking it? Probably. But my mind is ALWAYS chewing on something. Until my experiences earlier this year I have been pretty much willing to just dismiss "instinctive" out of hand. After those experiences, though I was left just knowing that SOMETHING must be going on, but no idea what. After reading the Scientific American article it struck as a possible explanation. And really along with your statement, " Some will be able to do it, some will not." it still fits. Blind sight is quite rare. Its just that for the first time I may be willing to accept the idea that for some exceptional individuals it is possible for them to make their bodies make uconscious yet calculated motions based on unconsciously perceived input. I can't prove it. Its just an idea. But I believe that there is actually an explanation for insctinctive shooting.
Oh and thanx for the compliment, flattery will get you everywhere with me!
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby AROMAKR » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:26 pm

Another example of what I'm trying to say is. Lets take golf, after the fundamentals are taught and ingrained, other than knowing what club to choose and knowing the course, everything else is instinctive and "Concentration" And probably the best example is Tiger Woods. He has done more in golf than any other golfer in history, we know he is capable because he's done it, however since the turmoil in his life he hasn't been able to do crap. Did his brain change, I doubt that, did something happen to his abilities, I doubt that also. What I believe happened is he's lost his confidence and his ability to concentrate under pressure. He's listening to the crowd and the noises around him instead of blocking them out and putting his conscious and subconscious thoughts in executing the shot.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Bender » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:35 pm

That's pretty good example. He is allowing the external crap get into his head. But lets go back to the shooter. That sort of thing will destroy a shooter, even if they use sights, or gap, or instinctive. You're right, brain processing doesn't change, but focus and concentration sure does.
Also you should understand that even if I may never be a great instinctive shooter, for me to see it actually work for a change, and to give it serious consideration, to contemplate a possible explanation for how the mind works, that's a big deal for me.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Aries » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:37 pm

BK in Wisconsin wrote:
Hornseeker wrote:...then get yerself setup so you are shooting an arrow just long enough to clear your shelf... Then... get yerself some full length 32+" inch shafts that fly ok, and make sure bother sets of arrows are the same weight.

My $$ say you will have two different groups of arrows on the target...


Yup! That's it for me too. My arrows hang over the shelf 1" and I don't consciously look at them, BUT I have to shoot the same length arrow. So ya, I think my mind sees it, even if it isn't acknowledging it.


Wondering how one would get a longer arrow to weigh the same as a shorter arrow without changing the spine hense changing point of impact. I don't see the logic or argument it is meant to prove?

When instintively shooting it is based on shooting the same arrow type, weight, spine, length etc . One cannot pickup two arrows with anyone change from above and expect to hit the same location. Given a few shots to make an ajustment, you can hit the same spot just as in tossing two objects of different weight. Some use an argument ustilizing muscle memory but that is exactly what instinctive is all about. Muscle and mind working together.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Bender » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:18 pm

Depending on how heavy and short the original arrow is, it is very possible to get a longer arow to weigh the same, or even less, if you're working with the synthetics. Wood is somewhat more problematic.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby brinkwolf » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:00 pm

Ok sorry but must say on the golf example deal that it isn't all instinctive. I had an Uncle and his son(my cousin) were both semi-pro golfers and trust me top level golfers can put that ball were they want. Yes they can aim the ball because my uncle proved it to me. He told me he would hit a ball between two trees 75-100yds out that were at a right angle to him and he not only did it but put it right between the trees like he said he would. He showed me how he did it and of course back then when I was playing alot I could hit pretty good. It's similiar to playing pool and putting english on the ball. So you can dang well believe Tiger and other pros can do it too.
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Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Neobowman » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:13 pm

I just got back into shooting and was just turned on to this forum by a bow maker were i shoot at. I really like were ya'lls heads are at on this forum good stuff. As for shooting i started back in the early '80s as a child until '95 when i graduated high school, now back in 2005 i broke my neck (crushing 2 verts) leaving nerv damage to my left side. In 2009 i was out a job and had nothing to do living in my barn on my 2 acrs until my step-dad gave me his old Pearson spoiler compound bow from the early '80s and it was styled just like my old Hoyt but the one thing i lacked was former knowledge of how to use sights, for you see yes i did have sights on that old bow of mine but self teaching i had now knowing of how to set ranges on em so back then i just moved them out of my way but still glanced at them from time to time when i changed my unknown distances. I usta cut fins on milk jugs n place a black dot on the fin, hang it n wait till the wind turned it just enough for me to release my arrow to enable hitting it when it got there. I would shoot after school till my fingers bled using first a tab then bare skin once i callused being about 2:30 till after dark sometime. Well as i started shooting that Pearson he started me off at 10 yrds and by the end of summer i had to move out to 50 due to robin-hooding too many arrows and w/o any money i couldnt afford that so i would just shorten n refletch em. now i have a recurve seeing as i was also using one at this time to work on technique n knowing my shot placement as well as follow thru. I revert back to my compound when i feel the need for that perfect shot day like when the weather is messing w/ me n i know ill have a bad day shooting lol. Archery is the best mental as well as physical therapy i have found for me. I guess u could say i learned instinctive shooting then later learned proper form but some days all i can hit is the black ring round the bull concentrating not looking but feeling n what was string slap- when i raise the bow as drawling it hit anchor then release? and i anchor with my thumb just behind my jaw so poa with the tip of the arrow is not there i have to lead the target to the right with the point if i take and look at it. now when i do back up i lead point north of the target but all is inner head guesstimates subconsciously done n i am better than my cross dominate step-dad, he said he has to rely on muscle mem n he is not too shabby a shooter but he has his bad days. but on average i out shoot him sometimes i concentrate other times i blur all visible s out n feel n then other time i look always switching it up but staying consistent 20 yrds 9 ring or bull but always a 4inch or less group. now when i am hurting i have to focus on my stance making sure that i am not slumped over n have decent form and with my compound bow i have no 20yrd pin (20 is my 50 only owning 3 pins lol) so i shoot glancing at my 30 seeing it on bottom of target pace but i also think of stance n focus back n forth from tip placement n no focus also i think bout breathing, but w/ the recurve i just shoot. now i have been testing different arrow combinations tips inserts spines carbon aluminum feather styles n lengths n i can have a mixed lot at the range pulling any one that touches my fingers n almost always put it (w/o identifying the arrow i pulled) were i want it, the only ones i can not is my heavies but they are in line L - R were they need to be. as for arrow length i see slight flight variances i can identify if i get to preform follow thru properly. on the whole i shoot bout 3 hrs a day now and was shooting 20 arrow strings for 30 mins w/ 20min brakes all day shooting when out in my barn living last summer for the year i was there. so as u can see weather or not i go thru all the shooting styles at different times and in different situations but i believe w/o constant shooting and knowing thru that repetitive your shot placement you can train at any style and preform fare and better than average (hopefully average is perty good cause then i would be better than good lol) but i have the confidante to shoot my recurve at a rabbit from 30-35 yrds and i know that i can kill a rabbit out to 60yrds w/ or w/o a pin on my compound (cause i know were my 50yrd pin will hit) srry ya'll to had been so long in breath here (first posting n all) maybe ill have less to share next time. i feel, i sight, i inner "see/feel/sight" i focus, i unfocus, i use just form alone all this and none all together to make my shot i need.
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