Skip to content


Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

A place to discuss shooting styles, form, aiming systems, experiences, etc...

Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby VoodooSteve » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:36 pm

"Not sure about Voodoo.... he is just a freak of nature!"

Naw Hornseeker...It's Voodoo!! WOOoooOOOOOoooo,lol,lol....

In my experience and opinion all a true instictive shooter needs to see is their target, but there is a caveat.... the bow/arrow combination really makes a difference past about 15 yds....most instictive shooters can shoot about any bow ok, but give them the bow and arrow combination they always shoot and that's where they shine, and that's my biggest problem, I like to shoot different bows, if I stuck with the same one, I'd do pretty good, but that went out the window when I started making bows...

Now I have no Idea how this actually works, I just do it, I guess it comes from shooting thousands and thousands of arrows with your brain and not your eyes, that's why I said your head has to be right, I think it has to do a lot with retained muscle memory through shooting all those arrows and NOT concentrating on your bow or arrow, but only on the target.... when I really got good at this as a kid I was shooting escaping carp and flying birds, I didn't have time to concentrate on my arrow or bow, I just reacted to the target.......it took me a while to get this in my head, but once I started connecting, it became easier, but then again I shot almost every day too.....a good instinctive archer shoots a lot, a very good one shoots a lot more, but it really depends a lot on the brain, some people retain info better than others and that's a problem with me too, I smoked a lot of pot when I was a teen, and when I quit I got a lot better at retention, but then when my neck got broken in 2000 it really hurt me bad, between the pills and the pain I had a very hard time remembering anything, then when I got off the pills it got a little bit better, but the pain was aweful and the docs told me the pain could only get so bad before it would affect my memory, it took a while before I could shoot a bow good again instictively and my memory is still getting better but I very much doubt it'll ever get good enough to shoot as well as I did as a kid....my father was a target archer and when I got my brain finally wrapped around instictive shooting back then, I could outshoot him any day, anywhere.. and it pissed him off to no end.........those were the days.....
I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry, like a bird upon the wind, these waters are my sky, I'll never reach my destination, if I never try, so I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry......
User avatar
VoodooSteve
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:09 pm


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby LBR » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Not on purpose Steve--I just haven't shot enough with you to describe your shot. I shot with Earl for years, so I'm comfortable discussing it.
LBR
 


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby VoodooSteve » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:35 pm

I wish I could have met him Chad, through our conversations I feel he must have been one hellava person....
I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry, like a bird upon the wind, these waters are my sky, I'll never reach my destination, if I never try, so I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry......
User avatar
VoodooSteve
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:09 pm


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Bender » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:05 pm

Very cool info. IF my idea has any merit, it is becoming clear that it can't possibly apply across the board. No real surprise there though. None the less I liked my idea because it helped explain when people would say things like, "I'm not really sure what I do but I'm sure I'm not conscious of the arrow." But those who can honestly shoot in the dark clearly aren't explained by my idea.
Yeah my original post didn't say anything about form. Took it as a given I guess. And form should never be assumed. When some newbie asks about trying to learn instinctive all too often we see the replies about all he has to do is think of it like throwing a baseball and just stand there at 10 yards and shoot until he can hit a spot, then start backing up. We know, instinctive shooting or not, that just ain't gonna get it in the long run.
I got to wondering about something. When I work with newbies when we get to where its time for them to actually hit something, I go right to gap or point of aim. Quick positive results that keep them interested. When the idea of instinctive shooting comes up I tell them to keep working on getting form and get to where they can can consistently group and hit what they're aiming at, and if they feel up to it later, instinctive is something that they can try. I wonder though, is that really possible. Can an aimer ever honestly become a good instinctive shooter? When I guide a person to conscious aiming am I possibly shutting them out of a different way of shooting?
User avatar
Bender
 
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:09 pm
Location: Granola CA What ain't fruits and nuts is flakes.


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby njstykbow » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:17 pm

I wonder though, is that really possible. Can an aimer ever honestly become a good instinctive shooter? When I guide a person to conscious aiming am I possibly shutting them out of a different way of shooting?


A partial "yes" is my answer. If the shooter is new...I assume form work is done at point blank range w/o a target. When it becomes time to choose an "aiming method" and the shooter wants to try instinctive...start them out at the same very close ranges where the arrow is waaaay below their line of sight. Do a walk-back method of instilling the hold on different distances. Don't have them estimate range and vary the shooting location and targets. Start each day with a session of blank bale and go right to the walk-back to whatever distance reasonable groups are retained. Several arrows should be shot at each distance. With a new shooter...sometimes I would recommend staying with a distance or three for the whole session.

As far as switching from gap or poa to instinctive...good luck on that. In my opinion...once a shooter has learned to use the arrow...it's almost impossible to ignore it.

Joe
User avatar
njstykbow
 
Posts: 1704
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:36 pm


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby LBR » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:09 pm

Words don't describe him. He was an amazing archer and friend. He was an icon that way to few were able to meet. He was the polar opposite of the likes of sackless, vapor, bm 13, etc. He only spoke when he had something to say. He generally let his actions and the way he lived speak for him. When he died, a piece of archery died.
LBR
 


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby VoodooSteve » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:37 am

njstykbow wrote:
I wonder though, is that really possible. Can an aimer ever honestly become a good instinctive shooter? When I guide a person to conscious aiming am I possibly shutting them out of a different way of shooting?


A partial "yes" is my answer. If the shooter is new...I assume form work is done at point blank range w/o a target. When it becomes time to choose an "aiming method" and the shooter wants to try instinctive...start them out at the same very close ranges where the arrow is waaaay below their line of sight. Do a walk-back method of instilling the hold on different distances. Don't have them estimate range and vary the shooting location and targets. Start each day with a session of blank bale and go right to the walk-back to whatever distance reasonable groups are retained. Several arrows should be shot at each distance. With a new shooter...sometimes I would recommend staying with a distance or three for the whole session.

As far as switching from gap or poa to instinctive...good luck on that. In my opinion...once a shooter has learned to use the arrow...it's almost impossible to ignore it.

Joe


+1.......it's relatively easy to teach and instictive shooter to aim but as Joe stated, almost impossible to teach an aimer instictive..... unless that aimer has been using an add on sight of some type.


Kids are the easiest to teach instictive to as the have no pre concieved notions of what they are supposed to be doing, just correct their form and they will figure out the rest all by themselves.........I enrolled my daughter, at her request, in the local 4-H archery program, she decided to use my Monster bow compound with all the bells and whistles as she already knows instictive stickbow and I don't hardly ever shoot a compound anymore, anyway I was very interested in how this instructor would be teaching the kids, and I was very impresses at what she did.....there was very basic instruction which lasted about 10 minutes and then she had the kids grab a bow(no sights), 6 arrows, safety glasses, and they started shooting, and as they did she walked along the shooting line correcting their form, but said not a word about aiming of any type she just let them go, and at first arrows were flying everywhere but by the end of the night most every kid there was keeping their arrows on target, and this lasted about 8 weeks, the kids got better and better and as they did she moved them back another 5 yds. and some got better faster than others,but the last evening she brought a bag of 100 balloons, and it was awesome, those kids shot the heck out of them and before class was half over I had to run over to the grocery to get more......instictive shooting is a learned behavior, and is best learned by doing...... a very good instictive instructor teaches only form and safety, the rest is learned by the shooter themselves.
I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry, like a bird upon the wind, these waters are my sky, I'll never reach my destination, if I never try, so I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry......
User avatar
VoodooSteve
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:09 pm


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby VoodooSteve » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:43 am

Chad those are some fine words!, I hope someone talks about me like that after I pass, but I'm afraid in sticking my neck out like I do, it's gained me as many enemies as it has friends....
I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry, like a bird upon the wind, these waters are my sky, I'll never reach my destination, if I never try, so I will sail my vessel till the river runs dry......
User avatar
VoodooSteve
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:09 pm


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby arrowlauncherdj » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:02 am

I am an eye doctor and know a little bit about peripheral vision. You have much more peripheral vision from line of sight down, than line of sight up. It is impossible to hold a bow, draw, anchor and not have a view of 3/4 the full length of most bows, including most of the shaft. But, whether you acknowledge it or not is another story. I think the key is movement. You pay much more attention to a moving object in your peripheral vision, than you do a stationary one. I have noticed for myself that when I draw, if I dont anchor really solid and be nearly perfectly still before release, it is much harder to concentrate on my target.

I believe I shoot somewhere between gap shooting and "instinctive", but since shooting is a learned skill... I am still a bit skeptical about anything being truly "instinctive" when it comes to archery. Instinct is to pull you hand away from a hot object, duck a punch, etc... With all the form crap that can go wrong in archery, to me there is nothing "instinctive" about it. Maybe better termed "subconscious" shooting/aiming than instinctive.

Hey opinions are like a**holes, mine may stink, but it is what it is.

Dave
User avatar
arrowlauncherdj
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:15 pm
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama


Re: Alternatives in Instinctive Shooting

Postby Fuzzy Dog » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:57 pm

It seems to me that there is no such thing, biologically speaking, as either instinctive shooting or muscle memory.

"Instinctive shooting" is a term of art, used in archery to describe an aiming system that's been so well and so long practiced that it no longer requires conscious thought by the the archer. "Muscle memory" is basically the same thing; action repeated until it no longer requires conscious thought. When instinctive shooting has been mastered, the subconscious, or reptile brain, has programmed into itself, and thus knows, where the bow hand has to be to hit a spot that is selected by the conscious mind in the aiming process. It knows this because it's done it hundreds or thousands of times in practice using the same clues from the aiming focus and the information that is provided from the peripheral vision to repeat what's worked before.

There are damn few things that are truly instinctive in human behavior beyond breathing. Even pulling away from heat, or ducking a punch, is a learned behavior, it's just that it's usually learned from one bad experience, unlike instinctive shooting which is learned from hundreds or maybe thousands of good ones, after you learn enough about shooting to have a consistent enough shot to start regularly having good experiences.

I don't claim to be a good shot, though I'm trying to learn to be, and I certainly don't claim to be an archery expert, but I can say with no doubt in my mind that anything that takes as mcu time and work to learn to do well as "instinctive shooting" does is in no way, shape or form "instinctive." That doesn't mean we shouldn't use the term; it works perfectly well for what it's intended to describe. There's no magic to instinctive. It's learned, the same way gap, point of aim, string walking, etc. are. If anything it may be more limiting than some of the other aiming methods, because ii gives you no basis to aim beyond the longest distance at which you regularly practice. At that point both you and your subconscious are guessing, whereas I suspect, admittedly without knowing, that gap and some of the other systems are more likely to provide a basis upon which to make a reasoned adjustment at an unusual distance rather than simply guess.
"Now I'm generally a mild mannered, live and let live kind of guy, but any fucking snake that gets between me and my coffee pot is just buckin' to be a hat band." The Topcamp Chronicles.

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
User avatar
Fuzzy Dog
 
Posts: 1638
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:17 pm
Location: Cedar Park, TX

PreviousNext

Return to Board index

Return to Shooter's forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest