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Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

A place to discuss shooting styles, form, aiming systems, experiences, etc...

Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Fuzzy Dog » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:03 pm

Jim,

I spent last Thursday with Len Cardinale listening (almost entirely) and shooting (very little), trying to learn how to put a shot together. His view of "release" is that there is no such thing. It has to happen between commitment and conclusion without conscious thought because no human being can hold two thoughts simultaneously. So, if you're thinking about release you can't be focused on aim, at which point as Rod said, let down and start over.

Instead of being released, the arrow should leave the string as you slowly expand from commitment, the point at which you've checked everything you need to check and you're satisfied and have switched all of your thoughts to aiming, to conclusion. His rule was that I could choose whatever I liked as my conclusion, but it had to be repeatable without variation and absolutely had to take long enough to reach that the arrow nock was out in front of the bow before I got to conclusion.

It's the same stuff Yohon, Joe and Rod are saying. With some luck and a lot of work we'll both be able to do it that way at Baltimore next year.

paul
"Now I'm generally a mild mannered, live and let live kind of guy, but any fucking snake that gets between me and my coffee pot is just buckin' to be a hat band." The Topcamp Chronicles.

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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Jim Casto Jr » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:08 pm

Hang in there Paul. We'll make it! Lesser men would crumble under the pressure. :mrgreen:

After the previous posts, and yours, Paul... I understand.

Rod Jenkins wrote: ....commitment, then start the aiming/final expansion phase.



Rod, Joe, Yohon,
I thought that might be what was going on, but it wasn't. Close, but not close enough. As per your suggestion, I just went out and added the "commitment/aiming/final expansion to conclusion" to my routine--in that order. When I got to perfect alingment, I committed, then, I aimed. I found that I could aim "longer" while I was pulling to conclusion. Now this is very enlightening. It seems like a shift in focus, or something. At any rate, I think, for the first time in my life, I just felt what the perfect shot(s) feels like. I was able to duplicate it several times on the bale.

I think it best that I stay on the bale a few days and burn this in. I'll let you know in a few days how things are going, when I get back up on the bridge.

Joe,

I've been shooting at a 24" x 24" rubber block. I found myself picking out a hole in it so a stuck a paper plate on low. I just make sure the arrow is on the plate now and the arrow hits above it. I think it may be okay for now at 5 to 10 yards. What do you think?
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby njstykbow » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:01 pm

Joe,

I've been shooting at a 24" x 24" rubber block. I found myself picking out a hole in it so a stuck a paper plate on low. I just make sure the arrow is on the plate now and the arrow hits above it. I think it may be okay for now at 5 to 10 yards. What do you think?


Jim,

I don't know if it's feasable for you, but a circular is the preferred target...roughly 30" to start. The key is for it to be a transition to a target without actually causing stress about aiming or hitting/not hitting your "target". Maybe put the block target on a stand and tack the circular target to it with the edges protruding out past the edges of the block (you're not going to be hitting on the edges anyway! ;) ) Get comfortable with that size target and steadily increase your distance. When you reach "your" distance and are 100% on shot sequence...start reducing target size.

That said...I'm not real sure I'd be shooting the bridge at all right now after your comment about finally feeling the first "perfect shot". I know it's a setback, but you MUST ingrain that shot on the bale BEFORE you start the bridge. You've already made huge strides, so this minor setback will not take any significant time to overcome.

Paul,

Len C. is the man on this stuff. Take a pocket tape recorder for the next session with him. He goes over so much stuff...it's hard to retain it with memory alone. Check with him first to make sure that's O.K. before you do it though.

Joe
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Feral Donkey » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:13 pm

Fuzzy Dog wrote:Jim,

I spent last Thursday with Len Cardinale listening (almost entirely) and shooting (very little), trying to learn how to put a shot together. His view of "release" is that there is no such thing. It has to happen between commitment and conclusion without conscious thought because no human being can hold two thoughts simultaneously. So, if you're thinking about release you can't be focused on aim, at which point as Rod said, let down and start over.

Instead of being released, the arrow should leave the string as you slowly expand from commitment, the point at which you've checked everything you need to check and you're satisfied and have switched all of your thoughts to aiming, to conclusion. His rule was that I could choose whatever I liked as my conclusion, but it had to be repeatable without variation and absolutely had to take long enough to reach that the arrow nock was out in front of the bow before I got to conclusion.

It's the same stuff Yohon, Joe and Rod are saying. With some luck and a lot of work we'll both be able to do it that way at Baltimore next year.

paul


Just like all shooting sports, you apply pressure until the shot goes off by surprise. I totally agree with that. What I don't agree with is the letting down. Having letting down as an option in your mind is like the difference between trying and doing.

"I never try anything, I just do it!. Wanna try me?" that was from a B movie called Faster, Pussycat KILL KILL and later that audio sample was used in a White Zombie song. What we're talking about here is a lot of brain game. When the karate man goes through the sequence to chop his hand through a cement block, does he have quitting on his mind as an option? If his mind isn't committed, he's going to have a really sore hand. You get all that crap out of the way before you grab that string. When you start to draw, you crossed the point of no return. You start letting down and next thing you know you'll be carrying a stool and umbrella with you on the 3D course then start throwing tantrums when someone behind you rattles their arrows in their quiver a little. You wanna be that guy? :P When you go to shoot, you go to shoot. You don't try. You do. You're trying too hard and you're not doing hard enough.

Just shoot that sonofabitch! but also remember to have fun with it.
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Fuzzy Dog » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:25 pm

FD,

Mostly I agree with you. Once you commit and move all your focus to aiming the shot is on barring getting hit by lightening or the equivalent. On the other hand if your karate guy on the way to his commitment point realizes he's not fully committed but is watching the hot chick in the third row take her sweater off he'd better restart his sequence or that block is going to break his hand.

The same thing is true if you're thinking about your "release" instead of your aiming - you're not fully committed to the shot so if it matters what you hit you'd better start over. That's also why the bale works - you can make a shot without fully committing to aiming because with the bale you really don't care where on it you hit - it's just there to catch arrows.

Admittedly a lot of this may be purely semantic given the number of archery terms that are used to mean different things, including commitment, but I'm using commitment to mean that you've run your preflight checklist, you're satisfied with it and have focused exclusively on what you want to hit.

Paul
"Now I'm generally a mild mannered, live and let live kind of guy, but any fucking snake that gets between me and my coffee pot is just buckin' to be a hat band." The Topcamp Chronicles.

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby woodsman » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:49 pm

Jim... I had severe TP for over 25 years and I understand exactly what you're going through. I've have totally defeated the TP now, it may try to come back but I have the information now to keep it under control.

How did I beat it... Using exactly the methods you're starting to do right now.. Hang in there, cause this will work.. when it's been a problem for as long as it has been for folks like you and me.. I can tell you it won't be easy but it will work.

One thing that helped me tremendously when taking my bale shot to the target was using the large target.. TP is as the word describes, target panic, so get a bulls-eye that overly large. The mind can accept that, much easier to get that extra hold time you're after..

I understand what you're going through, I really do. Just wanted you to know this is REAL and it does WORK.

Any time you want to talk.. send me a pm.

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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Jim Casto Jr » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:17 pm

Thanks woodsman for the encouraging post.

Maintainable State?????

Maintainable state, may not be the right term. I saw it the other day, and figured it described a condition, or lack thereof that this old bowhunter suffers from.

Okay now… I’m taking a bit of a turn in the thread. Just a reminder here… been fighting target panic forEVER. I haven’t been able to hold at anchor forEVER. There was always jerking, plucking and on and on. Why? I don’t have any idea, but since working on this darn bale, I now know what the symptoms of the PANIC were/are.

I have come to the conclusion (in my particular case) that (my) target panic is nothing more than a short-circuit in my mind that triggers a response to turn loose of the string. It manifests itself by a pluck, a creep, or a total collapse followed by, and/or in conjunction with a premature opening of my fingers and loosing the string. It doesn’t allow me to hold, and “maintain” tension until conclusion.

After reading all the input from you guys and that one little nugget from Rod Jenkins, (“Id love to see you add a step between 6&7....commitment, then start the aiming/final expansion phase”), things have progressed much faster than I could have thought possible. Once I added that one step, I began to notice that I could hold longer while maintaining tension. The more I worked on the bale, the easier it became.

Today, as I began my drills on the bale, I noticed there was absolutely no apprehension, no anxiety, and no frustration. I could hold as long as I wanted until my final expansion to conclusion. I think I have FINALLY arrived at a “maintainable state.” I’m going to stay right here on the bale until the first of the week then, step up on the bridge again and see how it goes. So far… sooooooooo good.
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Feral Donkey » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:20 pm

Great you're going at it, Jim. If you need help, let me know. I'll bring a pistol. :P ;)

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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Lee Vivian » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:48 pm

This has been a very informative thread. By reading this I am glad in my time at TradTech I only gave equipment advice and not shooting advice. Like Jim, I am self-taught(and obviously not very well).

Before working in the industry, I had decided my shooting was terrible, and tried many new methods. I watched Scott Antczak's video, and started shooting two under and using a feel-good kind of gap method.....it started working for me, and I was shooting well on the 3d course....I worked at it for close to a year.....thought I had it down......that season I had a doe step out at about 15 yards, the pulse increased, and I promptly shot over her back....I went back to split finger without even thinking....that was just a doe.....and my brain went short circuit....so I understand what TC says....it happened to me.....

Now I am an average to mediocre shot, as those of you who have shot with me can attest....so I am the last person to give advice, and will offer none....but I can understand TC's post...and FD's as well......

What I would like to know from anyone, is...when you convert to a new style or method.....how do you get your brain to react to learned things when the moment arrives? Maybe if the doe had given me time to get set, but it was quick, and my brain just shut down....and I reverted back to what had worked in the past...but my yardage frame of reference was messed up.....I aimed for two under, but shot split......maybe I just get too excited...or I am not disciplined enough to convert, or I am just a fair to mediocre shot and that is all I will ever be......

Like I said, great thread......I have switched to three under, and with a lighter weight bow, I am feeling better about my shot.....hopefully it will work out this fall........

Keep talkin.......maybe this old brain will pick up something........


Lee
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Re: Ready to walk on the BRIDGE

Postby Fuzzy Dog » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:56 pm

Lee,

Based on what I've learned, and not at all on where my shooting is now, I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer to how do you get to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice until your brain has, in computer speak, overwritten all the old stuff and has only the new to revert to. I hope to know for sure by Baltimore next year.
"Now I'm generally a mild mannered, live and let live kind of guy, but any fucking snake that gets between me and my coffee pot is just buckin' to be a hat band." The Topcamp Chronicles.

Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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