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Shooting Machine

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Shooting Machine

Postby Todd Hathaway » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:16 pm

Hey, all.
Some pretty cool stuff yer doing!
Just had a question about the shooting machine. From what I've seen of pictures, I can't tell if it is released straight (like a compound release aid) or if it mimics paradox induction (as with fingers).
I've made a couple machines myself with very crude paradox inducing mechanisms, and wondered if there was a better way to do it.

I also do high-speed video, and noticed that without lateral string movement on release, the back of the arrow smacks the riser (at least for bows that aren't center shot). It seems that a straight release would give more favorable (less accurate for comparison's sake) speed results to arrows that are more centered.
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Kirkll » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:11 pm

These shooting machines we are using are using a caliper release so there is no "paradox induction" (what ever that is?) its a nice clean consistant release.

i'm curious what kind of camera you are using to shoot high speed video? i am very interested in getting something set up to do my own in the future in a digital formate if possible. are these high speed cameras expensive?

Kirk
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Only archers are fool enough to want to make a composite with natural materials and man made materials, and then bend it repeatedly...
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Todd Hathaway » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:43 pm

By paradox induction, I mean a bend is forced on the arrow when the string travels sideways as it comes off your fingers. Technically it happens even with a caliper release, but it is very slight and with no definitive direction of bend.

You can see my videos at TalonOptix.com, where I do some comparisons of a caliper release and finger type release (that specific video is here: http://talonoptix.com/Release.html).

When you see the videos, you should see why a "very clean" release is not a good thing for you average traditional bow. Since the arrow is not centered from the string to the bow, the string pushes the back of the arrow into the riser, slowing the arrow and causing poor flight. For most trad bows, the lateral movement of the string on release is necessary to get good arrow clearance around the bow.

The camera I use is a Casio Exilim Ex-F1...probably available on eBay for under $800 nowadays. It can take up to 1200 frames per second.
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby BK in TEXAS » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:32 am

Todd.....first off, welcome aboard! This ship has a lot of good people on here. When you get a moment post a little info about yourself in the Pirate Directory...kind of helps people know who each other is a bit. http://www.piratesofarchery.net/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2426. It looks like you could add some good info to some of the discussions on this board.

I remembered seeing that video but couldn't for the life of me remember where. I must have been browsing through your site while watching the Rick Welch slo-mo's. That's some pretty good video there man.

Can you give us a little info on the set-up. Like bow weight, arrow length, tip weight, etc. Also, when you induced the paradox, how far out did you need to swing the string to clear the window? It would be interesting to see the relationship between arrow spine / amount of centershot / & lateral movement needed. If I had one of those cameras I'd never get any work done :)

Again...welcome aboard.

BK
Hooked on Phonics......Helping kids read gooder since 1970.


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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Todd Hathaway » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:55 pm

BK,
Thanks for the welcome. Yeah, I've been around other sites. Even got my own, the Stickbow Target Archery Forum. (staf2.trinitylongbowmen.com). That was started by Rob Distefano years ago, but sees very little traffic, so he got rid of it. I offered to let it live on over on my web space because it's a good forum.

Anyway, I should have included the set-up in the video I guess. It was done a while ago, but best I can remember is that the first arrow was a carbon express 150, probably 32" in length. The second arrow was a carbon express youth arrow meant for bows no lighter than 35#.

The bow is a Martin Savannah, 45# at 28". The draw was made to 28".

I didn't measure lateral movement, just adjusted it to best reflect what it looked like on high speed video when coming off my fingers. I simply used a piece of PVC pipe that I placed at an angle in front of the string. The longer the pipe, the farther the deflection. This is a crude method, but enough to get the lateral movement I was looking for.

In the end, I was not happy with my shooting machine, so my experiments stopped. I also wanted to explore how the arrow oscillations changed with draw length, how brace height affected the paradox/clearance, etc.

Also, regarding the WTT results: amount of center cut certainly affects the arrow clearance and flight, BUT it may not make a noticeable difference in FPS at such short range. It may only be a fraction of a foot per second. A good way to find out would be to tape a 1/4 " thick piece of wood to the riser, thus temporarily moving the depth of the shelf out, and compare that speed to the speed without the wood. If the speed without the block of wood is noticeably better, you'll know that the tests are favoring a more center-shot bow.
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Redbows apprentice » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:08 am

Todd is a class act and can shoot pretty good :mrgreen:

Todd I have one of those Casio Exlim cameras with slow motion feature, it's proved to be one of my best Archery finds. That slow motion video feature has made huge improvements in my shooting form, most Archers don't have access to a good Archery coach and that little camera has to be the next best thing.

Steve
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Todd Hathaway » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:19 am

Hey Steve, I see you get around too! (Steve's the man, but you guys probably already knew that). I still wear the Leather "Towton" clip you gave me on my quiver.

I agree the camera is awesome for analyzing things. Sometimes it's a pain to get good footage by yourself...which is why I'd like a good shooting machine. Steve, have you uploaded any footage to youtube or anywhere?
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Redbows apprentice » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:14 am

Todd Hathaway wrote:Hey Steve, I see you get around too! (Steve's the man, but you guys probably already knew that). I still wear the Leather "Towton" clip you gave me on my quiver.

I agree the camera is awesome for analyzing things. Sometimes it's a pain to get good footage by yourself...which is why I'd like a good shooting machine. Steve, have you uploaded any footage to youtube or
anywhere?


Glad you still have the Towton clip, only had those few made specailly for that tourney. I haven't yet figured out how to post slow motion on Youtube, somebody said I will need some editing software. I did post a few clips of the Fita world 3D's but not great footage as I was fighting with form and feeling the pressure that day, last and final day I was still feeling the pressure but lucky for me my form came together nice when I needed it the most.(Search Fita 3D)

Once I figure out the camera and how to post decent clips on Youtube I'll send some links for everybody to pick apart. lol
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Todd Hathaway » Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:33 pm

The quicktime format that comes out of that camera is superior in quality, but sucks for having to edit. I used quictime pro to cut up some of the last clips I did (Rick Welch) but it is a very awkward way to edit clips. One thing you might try is converting them to AVI and just edit them with the movie editor that comes with windows.

Just a quick google came up with this: http://www.jakeludington.com/ask_jake/2 ... o_avi.html

The hardest part is figuring out the best method to compress the edited video. Otherwise it will be too huge for youtube.
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Re: Shooting Machine

Postby Kenro » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:19 pm

Hey Todd :D
Welcome aboard, glad to have ya. I know alot of the guys involved with the WTT stuff might be very interested in what you do with the video stuff.Very cool btw.
Your brother Brian told me alot about you as I was building his bow. I understand your family bloodline brings on some very talented shooters ;) I can honestly say that some "words" of Brians have helped me with my shooting BIG TIME!!
Anyhow, stick around, we gonna have some fun next round of WTT! :)

BTW, any elk a few weeks ago?
People used to say that I'd never amount to much but I can always say Ive served as a bad example!
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