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Leatherwall Thread

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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby Lee Vivian » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:23 am

To all:

We here at Lancaster are by no means trying to take anything away from the WTT tests. Although Rob is at the ATA show, and will probably come along soon and respond to this as well, I believe his offer on the LW was a direct response to the classic vs metal thread on the Wall. We are merely offering our facility and equipment to those there that woulod want to conduct tests.

We were a strong supporter of the first WTT, both by sending bows to be tested and providing some equipment such as a digital scale and arrows to be used for that and future WTT's. We have also offered WTT use of our high speed video and computers for further studies, at no cost to WTT.

As for Rob not mentioning POA,or WTT, in his second post he stated:

I don't want to take anything away from those who are also doing this or who've done this in the past. I give the WTT guys kudos for their testing last year as the process & results were informative and interesting to study. I'd like add to their efforts by offering our additional resources available to anyone willing to do the work in the eastern US at a great facility"


We here appreciate what WTT has done, and would just like to offer any assistance we can. I am sure Rob thought that by providing a facility and equipment, and posting it on the Wall, where it will be seen by quite a few bowyers and people interested, would be a way of validating everything WTT did and continues to do. As far as the freee hotel room, that is Rob's way of generating the initial interest and getting the ball rolling. We did not mean to detract from WTT. I regret that it appears that way. Like I said, it was mostly a response the the Classic vs Modern/Metal thread.

Please accept our apologies if we offended anyone, that was not our intention. We merely want to provide an avenue for future testing, so that all those involved with trad archery can be better informed about performance claims and reality.
Whether that testing be here, or WTT, or WTT here, we are available for anything that is needed.


Respectfully,


Lee
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby jwillis » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:52 am

Leegee,
Thanks for the clarification. I appreciated your sponsorship of the WTT2 event at Kenro's place last year and I hope that (we) the POA/WTT guys can come together and accept your generous offer for hosting the event. In hindsight, I just regret that I didn't get your logo on the t-shirt last year and give you some for free. I didn't realize you who were when you ordered your shirts...oops.

The challenge for us, in my opinion, is that we (POA/WTT) are loosely organized--not at all really--so finding agreement can be difficult at times. If someone will volunteer to serve as our leader/organizer for the event this year (for it to be held at Lancaster's), then that person could proceed in representing us by coordinating the planning and negotiations with Lancaster's, such as selecting a date and planning the physical arrangements, etc. (Kenro, I'm not suggesting that we take anything away from you in coordinating this year's event--unless someone close to Lancaster's is willing to take on the project--or if you want to continue to coordinate it even if it is held at Lancaster's? ;) ...lol).
Jim
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby jipp » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:33 am

lee - thanks for the response. thats what i got out of it the first time around when rob mention it on the wall. was nothing more than learning.. and making new friends.. im glad i was right.

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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:56 am

I dont hold anything against Rob or Lancaster, but Ken has Already spent a lot of time setting up and planning... as well as many other folks, hell I htink some have plane tickets, to go to Kens for WTT III... I think it should go as planned..

I have already talked to Rob about filming. I dont think their chrono is going to do anything more than Kens... But the filming is interesting to me for sure.

E
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby Lee Vivian » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:22 am

Thanks, guys. We didn't mean to replace what plans have already been made for this year's WTT, nor take charge. Just an offer to use our facilities and equipment in the future, not necessarily this year as far as WTT goes. I realize and appreciate all the work that everyone does to pull that off, and you all have our utmost respect and gratitude for it. Just an FYI for anybody in the future, our place and equipment is here for you...



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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby Kirkll » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:00 pm

First of all guys…I got to agree with Ernie here on the fact that Ken has already stepped up to the plate and offered his hospitality and began preparations for this years upcoming event. A few of us have plans made, and flight reservations confirmed……

Lee, I sincerely appreciate your comments and setting me straight regarding Lancaster’s intentions. I also thank brutha Gino for your help in giving this Leather Wall thread a different perspective….I only got one question….if that was sincerely the case…. Why wasn’t it posted on this forum as well as the LW….and…. Why wasn’t the offer made to host the “POA” WTT III event this year about 3 months ago when we first all put our heads together on this years event? I don’t know Rob or Lee personally, and I try not and get involved in bull shit of this nature…. I’m just looking at this and seeing what I’m seeing. That’s it……



I got a couple more things to say here that you guys can kick around here a bit……

First of all I could care less about the political portions or the gossip bull shit on this forum…. Most you guys can find me right here in the bowyers gallery with sawdust in my beard arguing some silly new idea with the more experienced bowyers ….But I’m the kind of guy who shoots from the hip and sorts out the damages when the dust settles…..not exactly the best way to respond in many cases…but that’s ol’ Kirk here, take it or leave it…..

I’ve met a really great group of guys here that are openly sharing ideas and swapping materials and helping each other out building better bows. I’ve seen the efforts made by Ken and Steve and others here to put last years event in good enough spirits to attract much more attention this year. enough to make me want to be a part of it too…..The WTT origins and a few other stories has been brought to my attention and I can only Say….It matters not so much how the path was chosen, it’s where we take it from here, and the spirit in which we walk the trail that matters now…..The reason this offer that was made by Lancaster hit me wrong was primarily due to it coming from another web site with no mention of ours…..

Even taking everything in the spirit of good intentions pointed out by Gino and Lee…. I really hate to see the home grown version of WTT II warped into a commercialized version by entertaining the idea of them sponsoring “Our event” with Lancaster archery in the back ground….I like the country music and the barn in the back ground much better than some 5000 sq foot warehouse lit by florescent fixtures. "A country boy can survive" is what rings in my ears when i think WTT ….. Hell I even got something rolling around in my head for my place in Oregon for the future….. Why commercialize a perfectly good gathering????

One other thing that’s just bugging the hell out of me here and I’ll go back to my shop here….

Jim….. Who in the Hell elected you to make a decisions to change venues and plans for WTT III in mid stream here? Your blatant disregard for Ken’s commitment to host this years event, and the planning made thus far by others as well….

WELL…. it just pissed me off is what it did!….

For some reason you think due to lack of organization in your opinion, you are ready to grab the reins here now? I don’t get it….Please set me straight here bro…. you of all people have shared openly most everything with the gang here, and contributed to last years event….WTF mate???? If you want to capitalize on the use of Lancaster’s facilities, which seems to me and others as well be trying to capitalize on the WTT event idea, get on with yer bad ass!…I’ll be flying to green bay and logging some bucket time with Ken myself….i may just be a stupid ol’ carpenter, but I smell ulterior motives lurking here….

now i didn't post this to start a pissing match here i'm just stating my own opinions and my own perspective....if i pissed in someones wheaties here....send me a pm with your phone number or l'll send ya mine.....
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby badger5149 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:13 pm

Kirk, I have to go along with your logic on this one, at first glance it looked pretty good. But after harder looking at it, it just would not be the same. You guys have something good going here I say lets just keep the ball rolling as we have. maybe a few guys could show up at lancaster just to verify our numbers match. Not hard to break 9 grain speed into 10 grain speed very precisely. Steve
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby jipp » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:27 pm

well i have nothing to add. other than i plan on adding one of my bows to this thing for 2010. so whatever you guys decide on. its all good with me. im on the other side of the planet so its not like id ever get to go. good luck to all. i have no clue if it will be a glass bow, tri-lam, or a beloved "mic-mac". but if its a longbow it will be 66" that is set in stone.. laughs

i see your logic too kirk.

But one thing. was this ever intended to replace it? I think im to blame here.

i posted this cause i thought you guys would be interested in it. they have slow motion cameras which would really answer some questions i have.

but i think the original idea was just to test the bows from rob at lancaster has from his family estate dated back to the 1800s. i do not know what the alternative motifs would be. ( and frankly i dont care anymore. ) i though it was just to test a bunch of old bows his family had and welcomed everyone to bring there modern bow.

if it was about lancaster making money off a new limb design off it. would that not be bad business.. he could buy what bows he wanted to test be hind a black curtain. and then come out with whatever product ( limb desighn ) he wanted.
what he posted on the thread was not about what the latest speed demon was. was just to test old bows and see how they compare to new ones.


sorry guys for posting a thread from the leather wall to here.



chris.
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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:53 pm

Kirk... You need to go take a polar plunge dude... Cold shower.

Whether or not “moving” the event to Lancaster is a good idea or not (if I could go…Id much rather see it at Kens)… I am positive there were no ulterior motives… Rob saw some guys talking about bow tests, he has top notch bow testing equipment… in order to make his company look good (which is what businessmen do) he offered it up and even threw in some incentives! On a whole different site with a mostly different bunch of guys talking about it.

From what I see, UNLESS pirates defect, our WTT shouldn’t even be affected. And it could help as we could have a couple bows go both ways and we could get some FPS comparisons..

As for your harsh words towards Jim… dude… Jim is one of the good guys…. Period. You will not gain any friends by cussing at Jim

With Luv Brutha,

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Re: Leatherwall Thread

Postby jwillis » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:32 pm

Kirk, Whoa... If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I didn't make any decisions or assume any responsibility. Nor did I volunteer to do anything. I would like to see our WTT testing event include the video analysis and be held at Lancaster's, but I believe it will be a stretch for us to pull it off this year. We would have to change a lot of things in order for it to happen. Jim
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