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Kids Longbow Build-Along

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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Hornseeker » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:45 pm

Heck if I know Bill! Actually, thats hotter than normal, I usually bump it down to about 200... should I go less? Just say the word sin say... I thought I'd heard Gino and maybe others talk about high temps, like 210-230 ish????

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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby shafted » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:05 pm

That sure seems like pretty hi temps, when I was doing limbs and risers I ran about 165 degrees. Getting way above 200 I would be getting a little worried about the glass or carbon epoxy or resin starting to break down, could be wrong of course but why so hot?
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Gino Bruno » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:33 pm

ernie- 160 is what i run and i am very careful not to go any hotter..... remember, epoxy is a liquid and it will boil. trust me on that one :cry: ...... the first time i used my heat tapes, i had the setting wrong...... yeah, it boiled and split the limbs right down the center..... if i remember right, the temp spiked at 230 when i finally realized that something was wrong..... 160 is the ticket....... once they are up to temp, the limbs will cure in 20 minutes 9i cook mine for 30 just to be safe)...... let them cool for 20-30 under pressure and you are ready to start grinding.
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Bill Howland » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:07 am

Ernie, Gino's dead on about to much heat. If you get Smooth-on to hot it will crystallize. Looks let sea salt, in the limb.

But as I look at the pictures again with the temp gauge in the form and the one previous to that. I think I see the top heat tape right on the bow. The bottom heat tape against the form??

I always keep the steel up against the limb, both top and bottom. And before pressuring up the hose I lift the steel and place the temp probe against the bow materials/between steel and limb. This will give you a better reading. I run my temp up slowly to 160 time for 20 min, maintaining 160. Then shut them off and let the temp drop below 90 degrees before removing from forms.

Another tip: I use a digital temp probe a lot more accurate than the analog.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PM ... T4TP=*LTIP

I use MSC part #: 012323180 and it works good for me, you can choose from a wide selection on the market.

Also something else I might want to mention is when your heat tapes are on, have the loose end attached to something. Don't let the heat tape hang out in the air. Tape it up against something so the heat tape can transfer its heat onto what ever. If you don't you risk burning the heat tape out. And will cause premature failure.

What did are you using for cores, glass and such?
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:40 am

Well, thanks guys. I will be sure to turn the temp down a tad! I have glued up 1 limb for an adult bow with the strips, the others have all been kids bows and they have seemed to come out alright... I've shot several of them, overdrawing them severely...they are safe! I know a couple got to at least 230..at least where I had the probe...

I am putting strip on form, metal over strip, bow limb, then metal, then strip, then metal, then hose... I'll have to pinch the thermometer into the lams and look into that new thermo that you described Bill. Thanks.

Bill, I plan to come to Gino's sometime in the first week of March...we'll have to drop by your place if you are so close. My folks live just over the border in Blanchard, ID...

Speaking of which, mom just sent me a pic.. not real clear, through the kitchen window...
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 am

Bill...those kids bows that I have pics of in the press are combos of walnut, maple, juniper and boo...just stuff I had laying around...

My big kid bows are usually juniper or walnut or action boo or african mohogany or red elm and sometimes with a belly of maple or ipe.... I only make longbows so far...

Speaking of which. I'd think a recurve limb would cure alot faster than a LB limb that may be twice as thick (some of mine are 350 thous at the thickest, not including wedge area).... still use 160 and 40 mins or so??

E
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Bill Howland » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:00 pm

Hornseeker wrote:Speaking of which. I'd think a recurve limb would cure alot faster than a LB limb that may be twice as thick (some of mine are 350 thous at the thickest, not including wedge area).... still use 160 and 40 mins or so??


Yup, I still use the same temps and time for the longbow limbs also.

Hornseeker wrote:I am putting strip on form, metal over strip, bow limb, then metal, then strip, then metal, then hose
I put the top heat strip up against the hose. That away I heat the metal with the strip and that heats my lams. Besides it keeps the glue of my strips that way.

Hornseeker wrote:Bill, I plan to come to Gino's sometime in the first week of March...we'll have to drop by your place if you are so close. My folks live just over the border in Blanchard, ID
Bring your work cloths. ;)
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:26 pm

To clarify...I have strip, metal, bow, metal, strip, metal, hose. so, there is always metal between my bow and the strips... Not sure why I have metal between strip and hose, but someone told me to do that and I dont think it hurts..

I'll bring work clothes!

Question, I've got a kids bow curing right now. I pumped it and heated it at 12:30. I took it to about 180, then dropped it to 160 (remember, using my temp method... between metal and strips, but no bow, towards the front of the form... I couldnt' find a good spot to put the probe into the bow without screwing up glue lines?????)...after 20 minutes, (gino said his were done then, but he "let them go" to 30) the smoothon is still very runny on the edges at squeeze out. So...I let it go and I bump the temp (at my reading spot) to 180ish...and checked it 5 minutes ago (47 minutes into curing) and the glue on the edges of the limbs is starting to get real hard, but in other areas its still runny (along the riser, where there is no heat strip contact, where there was squeeze out in my plastic wrap..)... When you pull a bow off...is the "bow" cured, but there is still gooey smoothon here and there along the edges where squeezeout was?

When I come over... I am wanting to see a "pro's" glue up! Have one ready. ;)

Ernie

PS...so I have to go to town. Im gonna shut the strips off in 5 minutes, that will be 1 hour at temps I"m sure are between 160 and 200 somewhere... (really 170-180 on my temp gauge)...
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Bill Howland » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:27 pm

Hornseeker wrote:the smoothon is still very runny on the edges at squeeze out.
Yup, because there is no heat being applied by the heat strips on squeeze out. So it will stay flexible.

Hornseeker wrote:(47 minutes into curing) and the glue on the edges of the limbs is starting to get real hard, but in other areas its still runny (along the riser, where there is no heat strip contact, where there was squeeze out in my plastic wrap..)
"where there is no heat strip contact" is the key, it is not getting heat cured. That actually curing at room temp and will be a lot slower.

Hornseeker wrote:When you pull a bow off...is the "bow" cured, but there is still gooey smoothon here and there along the edges where squeezeout was?
The gooey squeeze out of smooth-on is present on my limbs. But after sitting in the shop for maybe a 1/2 hour is hard enough to grind off. You are also wrapping you bow which should slow the curing of the glue. I use the same wrap as you do but I don't completely wrap the limbs in it. I use a piece on top and a piece on the bottom to protect tapes, steel and forms from excess glue. Once I pull the limbs out of the form I pull the wrap off and set them aside...to either put an other set into the forms or clean up. So after setting for just a short while the squeeze out it tough enough for me to scribe my lines and grind them down.

Have you seen this?: http://tb.smodev.com/tb/uploads/EA40.PDF

Here you'll see Smooth-On actually recommends lower temp and much longer cure times. I've been using heat tapes since 2002 and run take down limbs 20 minutes at 160 degrees....turn off temp letting it lower below 90 degrees then removing the limb from the form and setting it aside. While I glue up another to be put in the limb form. Once all my limbs are done I mark the limbs to dimension and grind off the excess glue and material. All in one day in most cases. I mix my glue via weight 2 ounces part A and 1-1/2 ounces part B. My air pressured hose is 90 psi. Works for me?

On the few one piece longbow prototypes that I made (3 to be exact) I actually used my hot box. At 150 degrees for 4 hours. And let sit in the form overnight in the box. Of course that's convection heat and doesn't cure as fast as the direct heat of the heat tapes.

One of these days I need to try Smooth-on post cure method. Which I kind of do now with my ActionSpecialWood Cores. I let them cure at room temp...process them into lams and then put them into the limb and heat them up. Never had a failure with those either. Never say never..Knock on wood!
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Re: Kids Longbow Build-Along

Postby Hornseeker » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:49 pm

Thanks for all the good info Bill!!

Yeah, I used hot box up until just this last week... cure 4 hours at 180, then let cool in the box... I'd be lucky if I could glue up 2 limbs in a day.. these tapes are sweet. I could probably glue up 6 limbs in a good day...

Thanks again and look forward to seeing your shop someday.

Ernie
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